Grand Jury Testimony of Detective Jeff Leslie, Part 2

Grand Jury Testimony of Detective Jeff Leslie, Part 2

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	23	MR. HUM, YOU WISH TO RECALL --
	24	MR. HUM: RECALL DETECTIVE JEFF LESLIE.
	25
	26	(PAUSE IN THE PROCEEDINGS.)
	27	(THE WITNESS ENTERED THE GRAND JURY
	28	HEARING ROOM.)



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	1	MS. PRIVER: HAVE A SEAT.
	2	YOU WERE PREVIOUSLY SWORN AND YOU ARE STILL
	3	UNDER OATH. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
	4	THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
	5	MS. PRIVER: STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD.
	6	THE WITNESS: JEFFREY LESLIE. L-E-S-L-I-E.
	7	MS. PRIVER: THANK YOU.
	8	MR. HUM.
	9	MR. HUM: THANK YOU.
	10
	11	JEFFREY LESLIE,
	12	RECALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF THE COUNTY
	13	OF LOS ANGELES, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY SWORN, RESUMED THE
	14	STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
	15
	16	EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
	17	BY MR. HUM:
	18	Q GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE LESLIE.
	19	A GOOD MORNING.
	20	Q DETECTIVE LESLIE, YESTERDAY YOU TOLD US YOU
	21	HAD CONTACT WITH CAMERON BROWN DOWN AT THE ARCHERY RANGE
	22	AND THEN YOU REQUESTED THAT HE GO BACK TO LOMITA STATION
	23	TO WAIT TO BE INTERVIEWED; IS THAT CORRECT?
	24	A YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
	25	Q AND AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU HAD DONE SOME
	26	INVESTIGATION AT THE ACTUAL SCENE, DID YOU, IN FACT, GO
	27	BACK TO LOMITA STATION TO SPEAK WITH MR. BROWN?
	28	A YEAH. WE MET WITH HIM JUST AFTER MIDNIGHT



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	1	AT LOMITA STATION.
	2	Q AND WHEN YOU SAY "WE," WHO WAS THAT?
	3	A MYSELF AND MY PARTNER, DETECTIVE DANNY
	4	SMITH.
	5	Q AND DO YOU RECALL ABOUT WHAT TIME IT WAS
	6	THAT YOU FIRST CONTACTED MR. BROWN AT LOMITA STATION?
	7	A TWENTY AFTER MIDNIGHT, 25 MINUTES AFTER
	8	MIDNIGHT.
	9	Q SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE EARLY MORNING
	10	HOURS OF NOVEMBER 9TH OF 2000?
	11	A YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
	12	Q NOW, DETECTIVE LESLIE, CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR
	13	US THE CLOTHING THAT MR. BROWN WAS WEARING AT LOMITA
	14	STATION?
	15	FIRST, WAS IT THE SAME CLOTHING THAT YOU
	16	HAD SEEN HIM WEARING AT THE ARCHERY RANGE?
	17	A YES, IT WAS THE SAME CLOTHING.
	18	Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE IT FOR US?
	19	A HE WAS WEARING A LIGHT-COLORED, OFF-WHITE,
	20	YELLOWISH T-SHIRT; SOME, WHAT I WOULD DESCRIBE AS,
	21	WALKING SHORTS; WHITE SOCKS AND HIKING BOOTS.
	22	Q AND DID YOU HAVE MR. BROWN'S CLOTHING
	23	PHOTOGRAPHED WHILE HE WAS STILL WEARING IT?
	24	A YES, WE DID.
	25	Q SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
	26	EXHIBIT 15, ARE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT YOU HAD TAKEN OF
	27	MR. BROWN'S CLOTHING AT LOMITA STATION?
	28	A YES, THEY ARE.



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	1	Q IF YOU COULD JUST STEP DOWN HERE AND
	2	DESCRIBE FOR US ANYTHING THAT YOU NOTED THAT SEEMED
	3	UNUSUAL ABOUT MR. BROWN'S CLOTHING.
	4	A PHOTOGRAPH A IS CAMERON BROWN. IT'S A
	5	FULL-FIGURE PHOTOGRAPH JUST DEPICTING THE GENERAL
	6	CLOTHING.
	7	PHOTOGRAPH B, AT THE TOP LEFT SHOULDER AREA
	8	ON THE FRONT OF HIS SHIRT WAS A SMALL BLOOD DROPLET AND
	9	SMEAR THAT WAS NOTED ON THE FRONT OF HIS T-SHIRT.
	10	MOVING TO PHOTOGRAPH C, THERE IS, ON THE
	11	BACK LEFT-HAND PORTION OF HIS T-SHIRT, BLOOD SOAKAGE,
	12	ALONG WITH SOME COAGULATED BLOOD THAT HAD MATTED AGAINST
	13	THE COTTON T-SHIRT, AS WELL AS ADDITIONAL BLOOD SMEARS IN
	14	THE CENTER AND BLOOD DROPLETS AND SMEARS TOWARDS THE
	15	LOWER PORTION OF HIS BACK.
	16	PHOTOGRAPH D, ONCE AGAIN, IS JUST A CLOSER
	17	PHOTOGRAPH OF THE SAME BLOODSTAINS AND BLOOD PATTERNS AND
	18	SMEARS AND DROPLETS.
	19	PHOTOGRAPH E SHOWS THE BOOTS, HIKING BOOTS,
	20	IF YOU WILL, THAT HE WAS WEARING THE NIGHT THAT WE HAD
	21	CONTACTED HIM. WE NOTED THAT THEY WERE WET AND HAD SOME
	22	SAND RESIDUE ALONG THE TOP AND ALSO THE PORTION WHERE THE
	23	SOLE IS ATTACHED TO THE UPPER PORTION OF THE SHOE.
	24	PHOTOGRAPH F IS A SHOT OF THE BACK PORTION
	25	OF HIS LEGS AND FEET. YOU CAN SEE IN THE PHOTOGRAPH ON
	26	BOTH THE LEFT AND RIGHT LEGS ON THE REAR, JUST AT AND
	27	BELOW THE CALF AREA, IS SOME BLOOD SMEARS AND SOAKAGE
	28	ALONG THE TOP PORTION OF HIS WHITE SOCKS.



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	1	Q THANK YOU.
	2	NOW, DETECTIVE LESLIE, EXCEPT FOR THE BLOOD
	3	ON MR. BROWN'S CLOTHING AND EXCEPT FOR HIS SOCKS AND HIS
	4	HIKING BOOTS, WAS THE REST OF HIS CLOTHING DRY?
	5	A THE REMAINDER OF HIS CLOTHING, YES,
	6	APPEARED TO BE DRY.
	7	Q NOW, DID YOU SPEAK WITH MR. BROWN AT LOMITA
	8	STATION ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED?
	9	A YES, I DID.
	10	Q DID YOU ALSO GET SOME BACKGROUND
	11	INFORMATION FROM HIM?
	12	A YES, WE DID.
	13	Q DID MR. BROWN TELL YOU HOW OLD HE WAS?
	14	A YES.
	15	Q HOW OLD WAS HE?
	16	A THIRTY-NINE YEARS OLD.
	17	Q DID YOU NOTE HOW MUCH MR. BROWN WEIGHED AND
	18	HOW TALL HE WAS?
	19	A YES.
	20	Q AND HOW TALL WAS HE?
	21	A HE WAS APPROXIMATELY SIX-TWO, SIX-THREE,
	22	WEIGHED APPROXIMATELY 220, 230 POUNDS.
	23	Q DID YOU ASK MR. BROWN WHAT HIS OCCUPATION
	24	WAS?
	25	A YES, I DID.
	26	Q AND WHAT DID HE TELL YOU HIS OCCUPATION
	27	WAS?
	28	A HE WAS A BAGGAGE HANDLER FOR AMERICAN



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	1	AIRLINES, WHICH BASICALLY ENTAILED LOADING AND UNLOADING
	2	SUITCASES, BAGS, FROM THE UNDERCARRIAGE OR UNDERBELLY OF
	3	AIRCRAFT ONTO A TRANSPORT AND BACK AND FORTH.
	4	Q NOW, DID YOU ALSO ASK MR. BROWN WHAT HAD
	5	HAPPENED THAT LED TO THE DEATH OF LAUREN?
	6	A YES, I DID.
	7	Q AND WHAT DID HE TELL YOU HAPPENED?
	8	A HE RELAYED TO US THAT HE HAD A
	9	NON-SUPERVISED VISIT GRANTED AND IT WAS HIS DAY TO VISIT
	10	WITH LAUREN KEY, WHO WAS HIS BIOLOGICAL DAUGHTER. HE
	11	TOLD US THAT AT 12:30 THAT AFTERNOON HE PICKED HER UP
	12	FROM THE CHRISTIAN MONTESSORI SCHOOL.
	13	Q LET ME ASK YOU THIS: DID HE TELL YOU
	14	WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD WORKED THAT DAY PRIOR TO PICKING UP
	15	LAUREN?
	16	A NO, THAT WAS HIS DAY OFF. HIS VISITATIONS
	17	WERE SCHEDULED FOR HIS DAYS OFF.
	18	Q AND DID HE TELL YOU ANYTHING ABOUT HIS
	19	RELATIONSHIP WITH LAUREN'S MOTHER, SARAH?
	20	A BRIEFLY, YES.
	21	Q WHAT DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT THAT?
	22	A HE TOLD US THAT THEY DID NOT GET ALONG VERY
	23	WELL AND ELABORATED TO AN EXTENT THAT, I BELIEVE THE
	24	QUOTATION WAS, THEY HARDLY SPOKE.
	25	Q LET'S GO BACK, THEN, TO WHAT HE WAS TELLING
	26	YOU ABOUT WHAT HAD OCCURRED THAT DAY. YOU SAID THAT HE
	27	TOLD YOU HE PICKED HER UP AT THE MONTESSORI SCHOOL?
	28	A HE PICKED HER UP AT 12:30 IN THE AFTERNOON



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	1	AT THE CHRISTIAN MONTESSORI SCHOOL WHICH LAUREN ATTENDED,
	2	WHICH IS IN THE CITY OF COSTA MESA.
	3	Q AND DID HE TELL YOU WHAT TIME HE WAS
	4	SUPPOSED TO BRING HER BACK TO HER MOTHER'S HOUSE?
	5	A HE WAS SUPPOSED TO RETURN HER, HIS
	6	VISITATION WAS OVER, AT 7:00 P.M.
	7	Q DID HE TELL YOU WHAT LAUREN'S EMOTIONAL
	8	STATE WAS WHEN HE WENT TO PICK HER UP?
	9	A YES.
	10	Q WHAT DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT THAT?
	11	A HE SAID THAT LAUREN INDICATED TO HIM THAT
	12	SHE HAD BEEN SICK; IT WAS EVIDENT THAT SHE WAS UPSET AND
	13	APPEARED AS IF SHE WAS CRYING, AND SHE HAD ALSO TOLD HIM
	14	THAT SHE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO GO WITH HIM THAT DAY.
	15	Q AND WHAT DID HE SAY HAPPENED THEN?
	16	A HE INFORMED BOTH THE CHILD AND THE SCHOOL
	17	ADMINISTRATORS THAT NO, SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO GO WITH HIM
	18	THAT DAY, IT WAS HIS GRANTED VISITATION DAY, AND TOLD THE
	19	ADMINISTRATOR, WHO HE WAS CHECKING THE CHILD OUT WITH,
	20	THAT HER MOTHER, REFERRING TO LAUREN'S MOTHER, TELLS
	21	LAUREN TO SAY THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
	22	Q DID HE RELATE TO YOU WHETHER OR NOT LAUREN
	23	WAS CRYING AT THE TIME?
	24	A YES.
	25	Q WAS SHE?
	26	A YES, SHE WAS CRYING.
	27	Q DID MR. BROWN TELL YOU THAT EVENTUALLY
	28	LAUREN DID GO WITH HIM?



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	1	A YES, HE DID.
	2	Q AND DID MR. BROWN TELL YOU WHERE HE HAD
	3	ORIGINALLY ANTICIPATED GOING AFTER HE PICKED UP LAUREN?
	4	A HIS ORIGINAL INTENTIONS FROM WHAT HE TOLD
	5	US WERE TO DRIVE THE CHILD, LAUREN, TO HIS RESIDENCE AS
	6	HIS WIFE, MISS BROWN, OR MRS. BROWN, WAS EXPECTING THEM
	7	AT THEIR APARTMENT WHERE THEY RESIDED.
	8	Q SO ACCORDING TO HIM THE ORIGINAL PLAN WAS
	9	TO JUST TAKE HER BACK HOME?
	10	A TO TAKE THE CHILD HOME, YES.
	11	Q OKAY. AND WHAT DID HE SAY HE DECIDED TO DO
	12	INSTEAD?
	13	A HE TOLD US THAT BECAUSE LAUREN WAS UPSET HE
	14	DECIDED TO SPEND SOME TIME, JUST THE TWO OF THEM ALONE,
	15	AND NOT TAKE HER BACK TO THE HOME.
	16	Q DID HE INDICATE TO YOU THAT THERE WAS ANY
	17	REASON WHY LAUREN WOULD BE LESS UPSET JUST SPENDING TIME
	18	WITH HIM THAN WITH HIM AND HIS WIFE?
	19	A NO, THERE WAS NO EXPLANATION OFFERED AS TO
	20	WHY.
	21	Q SO WHAT DID MR. BROWN SAY HE DID THEN?
	22	A HE TOLD US THAT HE THEN DROVE TO ABALONE
	23	COVE. HE BACKED UP A LITTLE BIT IN THE INTERVIEW AND
	24	SAID THAT HE HAD TRIED TO MAKE SEVERAL CALLS ALONG THE
	25	WAY OR ALONG THE DRIVE TO NOTIFY HIS WIFE, MRS. BROWN,
	26	THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE COMING, THAT LAUREN WAS UPSET;
	27	HOWEVER, THE LINE WAS BUSY. THEY CONTINUED ON AND THEY
	28	ARRIVED AT THE ABALONE COVE SHORELINE PARK, WHERE THEY



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	1	STOPPED AND HE ULTIMATELY WAS ABLE TO GET AHOLD OF HIS
	2	WIFE AND INFORM HER THAT THEY WOULD JUST BE SPENDING SOME
	3	TIME TOGETHER.
	4	Q THAT'S WHAT HE TOLD YOU HAPPENED?
	5	A THAT'S CORRECT, THAT IS WHAT HE TOLD US.
	6	Q AND WHAT DID MR. BROWN SAY HAPPENED ONCE
	7	THEY GOT TO THE PARKING LOT AT ABALONE COVE?
	8	A HE TOLD US ONCE AT ABALONE COVE, AFTER HE
	9	REACHED HIS WIFE, THEY WALKED DOWN TO A PLAYGROUND AREA
	10	ON THE BEACH.
	11	Q AND DID HE SAY HOW THEY GOT DOWN TO THE
	12	PLAYGROUND AREA, WHAT ROUTE THEY TOOK?
	13	A HE SAID THAT THEY HIKED. THEY HIKED THE
	14	TRAILS DOWN TO THE PLAYGROUND AREA.
	15	Q AND YOU TOLD US YESTERDAY THAT THERE IS, IN
	16	FACT, A PLAYGROUND AREA DOWN ON THE BEACH BELOW ABALONE
	17	COVE, CORRECT?
	18	A THAT IS INCORPORATED INTO THE PRESCHOOL,
	19	YES.
	20	Q AND WHAT DID MR. BROWN TELL YOU HAPPENED
	21	THEN?
	22	A HE SAID THAT THEY ARRIVED AT ABOUT 1:30,
	23	1:45, AND LAUREN PLAYED AT THE PLAYGROUND FOR ABOUT 20
	24	MINUTES.
	25	Q AND THEN WHAT DID MR. BROWN SAY HAPPENED?
	26	A HE SAID AT THAT POINT SHE JUST WANTED TO
	27	HIKE AND BEGAN HIKING.
	28	Q SO HE INDICATED TO YOU THAT IT WAS LAUREN'S



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	1	IDEA TO START HIKING?
	2	A ABSOLUTELY. HE TOLD US UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT
	3	IT WAS LAUREN'S IDEA TO BEGIN HIKING.
	4	Q AND WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THE HIKING?
	5	A HE SAID THAT SHE JUST STARTED HIKING. HE
	6	WAS HAVING DIFFICULTY KEEPING UP WITH HER, SHE WAS FAR
	7	TOO ENERGETIC, AND HE WAS HAVING TO -- COULD NOT HOLD HER
	8	BACK, IS THE WORDS THAT HE TOLD US.
	9	HE ALSO TOLD US THAT, AS THEY BEGAN HIKING,
	10	SOME OF THE TRAILS WERE RATHER STEEP AND THAT HE WAS
	11	ATTEMPTING TO HOLD HER HAND, AS HE WAS CONCERNED WITH HER
	12	DUE TO THE STEEPNESS.
	13	Q HE SAID HE HAD TROUBLE KEEPING UP WITH HER?
	14	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	15	Q AT SOME POINT LATER IN THE INTERVIEW DID
	16	MR. BROWN TELL YOU ABOUT HIS PHYSICAL CONDITION?
	17	A YES, HE DID.
	18	Q WHAT DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT WHAT KIND OF
	19	SHAPE HE WAS IN?
	20	A ASIDE FROM THROWING LUGGAGE ALL DAY LONG AT
	21	THE AIRLINES WHERE HE WORKS, HE ALSO TOLD US THAT HE
	22	SURFS DAILY AND PRIOR TO THAT HAD BEEN VERY INVOLVED
	23	RUNNING MARATHONS, HOWEVER HAD SUBSIDED FROM THAT
	24	STRENUOUS TYPE OF RUNNING DUE TO A LOWER BACK INJURY.
	25	Q WHAT DID MR. BROWN TELL YOU OCCURRED AS
	26	THEY WERE HIKING? WHERE DID THEY GO?
	27	A HE SAID PRETTY MUCH THEY HIKED THE TRAILS
	28	GOING TOWARDS INSPIRATION POINT AND THAT ALONG THE WAY



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	1	LAUREN WAS OUT IN FRONT OF HIM AS HE WAS TRYING TO KEEP
	2	UP AND WAS THROWING ROCKS OFF THE TRAILS.
	3	Q AND DID HE SAY, IN FACT, THAT THEY
	4	EVENTUALLY MADE THEIR WAY TO INSPIRATION POINT?
	5	A YES, HE DID.
	6	Q AND DID HE SAY WHOSE IDEA IT WAS TO GO OUT
	7	ONTO INSPIRATION POINT?
	8	A HIS WORDS WERE, "SHE WANTED TO GO OUT
	9	THERE."
	10	Q AND DID MR. BROWN TELL YOU WHY LAUREN SAID
	11	SHE WANTED TO GO OUT ONTO INSPIRATION POINT?
	12	A TO ENJOY THE VIEW.
	13	Q WHAT DID MR. BROWN TELL YOU HAPPENED ONCE
	14	THEY GOT OUT ONTO INSPIRATION POINT?
	15	A HE TOLD US THAT THEY ARRIVED AT THE POINT
	16	AND THAT HE WAS IN A SEATED POSITION, HE SAID FOUR FEET
	17	FROM THE EDGE. HE TOLD US THAT THEY HAD STOPPED AND SAT
	18	IN THE AREA WHERE, WHAT HE DESCRIBED AS, IT MAKES A
	19	U-SHAPE. HE SAID THAT THEY WERE SEATED -- OR HE WAS
	20	SEATED FOUR FEET FROM THE EDGE OF THE CLIFF; THEY WERE
	21	LOOKING AT THE VIEW, THE BOATS OFFSHORE; LAUREN WAS OUT
	22	IN FRONT OF HIM, ALONG THE LEFT SIDE OF HIM, BACK BEHIND
	23	HIM AT ONE POINT AND THEN OFF TO HIS RIGHT SIDE AT
	24	ANOTHER POINT. AND I BELIEVE HE SAID THEY SAT FOR FIVE
	25	OR 10 MINUTES.
	26	Q AND THEN WHAT DID MR. BROWN CLAIM HAPPENED?
	27	A HE SAID THAT HE WAS POINTING DIFFERENT
	28	AREAS OF INTEREST OUT TO THE FOUR YEAR OLD. HE TOLD US



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	1	THAT HE HAD POINTED OFF TO HIS LEFT AND WAS POINTING OUT
	2	TO THE FOUR-YEAR-OLD LITTLE GIRL WHERE PORTUGUESE BEND
	3	CLUB WAS, CATALINA AND, I BELIEVE HE SAID, WHERE
	4	MARINELAND USED TO BE.
	5	Q AND WHAT DID MR. BROWN CLAIM HAPPENED THEN?
	6	A THE FIRST TIME THAT WE WENT OVER IT HE SAID
	7	THAT AS HE WAS LOOKING OFF TO HIS LEFT, HE ONLY LOOKED
	8	AWAY FOR A SPLIT SECOND, AND HE HEARD A NERVOUS "AH" AND
	9	LAUREN WAS GONE, HAD VANISHED.
	10	Q AND SUBSEQUENT TO GIVING THAT EXPLANATION
	11	DID HE GIVE A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT VERSION OF WHAT HAD
	12	OCCURRED?
	13	A YES. THROUGHOUT THE INTERVIEW WE HAD HIM
	14	READDRESS HIS POSITIONING, WHAT TRANSPIRED, THE ACTIONS
	15	WITH THE CHILD, THE INTERACTION BETWEEN HIM AND THE
	16	CHILD.
	17	AND ON THE SECOND OCCASION THAT HE
	18	ADDRESSED WHAT HAPPENED RIGHT BEFORE SHE WENT OVER THE
	19	CLIFF HE TOLD US ON THAT ACCOUNT THAT HE HEARD A NERVOUS
	20	"AH" AS HE WAS LOOKING OFF TO HIS LEFT; HE LOOKED BACK
	21	AND SAW THE CHILD'S FEET AS SHE WAS GOING OVER THE CLIFF
	22	AND HAD SURMISED THAT SHE HAD LOST HER BALANCE.
	23	Q AND DID HE TELL YOU WHETHER OR NOT SHE WAS
	24	GOING HEAD FIRST OR FEET FIRST?
	25	A HEAD FIRST.
	26	Q OKAY. DETECTIVE, LET ME ASK YOU THIS: WAS
	27	THERE A REASON WHY YOU HAD MR. BROWN GO OVER HIS VERSION
	28	OF WHAT HAD OCCURRED MORE THAN ONCE?



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	1	A THERE WERE A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT REASONS,
	2	YES.
	3	Q AND WHAT WOULD THAT BE?
	4	A I THINK ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS WAS HIS
	5	LACK OF EMOTION. HIS BEHAVIOR, HIS ATTITUDE, HIS MAKEUP
	6	JUST WAS COMPLETELY INCONSISTENT WITH -- IN MY OPINION
	7	WAS INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT HAD JUST TRANSPIRED.
	8	THERE WERE SEVERAL THINGS THAT STUCK OUT AS
	9	FAR AS THE ROUTE THAT THEY HAD TAKEN, THE LENGTH OF TIME
	10	THAT A FOUR-YEAR-OLD GIRL HAD WALKED, AND JUST THE
	11	GENERAL AREA IN AND OF ITSELF, AND WHAT SEEMED TO BE A
	12	LACK OF PARENTAL CONCERN OVER SAFETY ISSUES. IT JUST
	13	DIDN'T SEEM TO QUITE BE ADDING UP.
	14	Q OKAY. AND SO YOU ASKED HIM ABOUT THIS
	15	VARIOUS TIMES BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO SEE IF THE STORIES
	16	WERE CONSISTENT OR JUST BECAUSE IT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE?
	17	A I FELT AS IF HE WAS LYING TO US.
	18	Q AFTER HE GAVE YOU WHAT YOU HAVE REFERRED TO
	19	AS THE SECOND VERSION, DID YOU ASK HIM AT SOME POINT TO
	20	GO OVER IT AGAIN?
	21	A YES, I DID.
	22	Q AND WHAT DID MR. BROWN TELL YOU THIS TIME?
	23	A ON THAT -- AT THAT TIME IN THE INTERVIEW HE
	24	AGAIN SAID THAT HE WAS LOOKING OFF TO HIS LEFT; HE
	25	RECALLED ACTUALLY POINTING TO HIS LEFT AT THE PORTUGUESE
	26	BEND CLUB OR WHERE MARINELAND USED TO BE, ONE OF THE TWO;
	27	HE SAID HE HEARD HER SAY, "OH, OH," AND HE LOOKED BACK,
	28	AND THIS TIME HE SAW HER UPPER BODY FROM THE BACK AND



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	1	BASICALLY THE LEFT SIDE, HE DESCRIBED SEEING THE LEFT
	2	SIDE OF THE YOUNG GIRL, GOING FORWARD AND GO OVER THE
	3	CLIFF HEAD FIRST, AND AT THAT POINT HAD SURMISED TO US,
	4	AS IF SHE WAS THROWING A ROCK AND HAD HURLED HERSELF
	5	FORWARD.
	6	Q DID MR. BROWN INDICATE TO YOU WHETHER OR
	7	NOT HE COULD SEE WHERE SHE LANDED OR IF HE COULD SEE DOWN
	8	THE CLIFF?
	9	A HE SAID HE COULD NOT SEE, HE DID NOT HEAR
	10	AND HE COULD NOT -- HE DID NOT HEAR HER HIT THE BOTTOM.
	11	HE HEARD NOTHING MORE FROM HER AND HE COULD NOT SEE, ONCE
	12	SHE WENT OVER, WHERE SHE HAD LANDED.
	13	Q WHAT DID MR. BROWN SAY HE DID AFTER LAUREN
	14	WENT OVER THE CLIFF?
	15	A AFTER SHE WENT OVER THE CLIFF, HE TOLD US
	16	THAT HE THEN RAN BACK INLAND AND TO THE LEFT SIDE OF
	17	INSPIRATION POINT, DOWN TO THE NUDE BEACH, LOOKING FOR
	18	SOMEBODY THAT HAD A CELLULAR TELEPHONE.
	19	Q NOW, YOU DESCRIBED FOR US IN SOME FAIRLY
	20	SIGNIFICANT DETAIL YESTERDAY THE SHAPE OF INSPIRATION
	21	POINT AND SPECIFICALLY THAT THERE IS SORT OF LIKE A
	22	NARROW NECK AREA THAT YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH IF YOU ARE
	23	COMING FROM THE ROAD BEFORE INSPIRATION POINT KIND OF
	24	WIDENS OUT A LITTLE BIT; IS THAT CORRECT?
	25	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	26	Q NOW, IN ORDER TO GET TO THE TRAILS THAT
	27	LEAD OFF OF INSPIRATION POINT, DO YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH
	28	THIS NECK AREA, BACK TOWARDS THE ROAD, BEFORE YOU CAN



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	1	ACCESS ANY TRAILS TO GO DOWN?
	2	A YES, THAT'S ACCURATE. IN FACT, THAT IS
	3	WHAT HE HAD TOLD US HE DID, IS RUN THROUGH THAT NARROW
	4	AREA AND THEN OFF TO THE LEFT, DOWN TO THE NUDE BEACH.
	5	Q AND WHAT DID MR. BROWN SAY THAT HE DID AS
	6	HE GOT DOWN TO THE NUDE BEACH?
	7	A HE SAID THAT HE HOLLERED OUT FOR ANYBODY
	8	WITH A CELLPHONE.
	9	Q AND DID MR. BROWN INDICATE WHETHER HE GOT A
	10	CELLPHONE?
	11	A YES, HE DID.
	12	Q WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THAT?
	13	A HE SAID HE OBTAINED THE CELLPHONE FROM A
	14	GENTLEMAN WHO WAS ON THE BEACH AND WAS IN THE PROCESS OF
	15	TRYING TO FIND RECEPTION ON THE CELLULAR TELEPHONE BY
	16	MOVING AROUND THE BEACH AREA, HE ULTIMATELY DID THAT AND,
	17	AS HE DIALED 911, THE END VERBIAGE WAS, ASKED THE
	18	GENTLEMAN WHO LOANED HIM THE CELLPHONE TO GO AND LOOK FOR
	19	HIS DAUGHTER.
	20	Q AND DID MR. BROWN INDICATE THAT HE, IN
	21	FACT, CONNECTED WITH THE 911 CALL AND REQUESTED HELP?
	22	A YES, HE CONNECTED WITH THE CALIFORNIA
	23	HIGHWAY PATROL, WHICH IS WHERE CELLULAR 911 CALLS GO, AND
	24	TOLD THE 911 OPERATOR THAT HIS DAUGHTER HAD FALLEN FROM A
	25	CLIFF IN RANCHO PALOS VERDES.
	26	Q AND DID HE ALSO SAY HE SPOKE WITH THE FIRE
	27	DEPARTMENT RESCUE PEOPLE?
	28	A HE SAID HE SPOKE WITH SOMEBODY ELSE, AND HE



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	1	BELIEVED IT TO BE THE FIRE DEPARTMENT.
	2	Q AND WHAT DID MR. BROWN INDICATE HE DID
	3	AFTER HE COMPLETED THE 911 CALL?
	4	A AFTER COMPLETING THE 911 CALL HE RETURNED
	5	THE TELEPHONE TO THE PERSON WHOM HE HAD BORROWED IT FROM,
	6	THAT PERSON HAD RETURNED TO THE BEACH AREA; HE THEN RAN,
	7	HE SAID, AS HARD AS HE COULD UP THE TRAIL, GOING BACK TO
	8	THE TOP OF INSPIRATION POINT, DOWN THE OTHER SIDE, WHICH
	9	IS IN THE GENERAL AREA WHERE THE ARCHERY CLUB WOULD BE,
	10	AND THEN ALONG THE EAST SIDE OF INSPIRATION POINT OUT TO
	11	THE ROCKS, WHERE HE SAW HIS DAUGHTER FLOATING FACE DOWN
	12	IN THE INLET.
	13	Q DID MR. BROWN INDICATE TO YOU AT ALL THAT
	14	AFTER HE MADE THE 911 CALL HE TRIED TO TRAVEL ALONG THE
	15	BASE OF INSPIRATION POINT FROM WHERE HE WAS RATHER THAN
	16	GOING ALL THE WAY BACK UP OVER THE CLIFF? DID HE SAY
	17	FIRST HE TRIED TO GO AROUND THE OCEAN SIDE, AROUND THE
	18	BASE OF THE CLIFF, TO GET TO HER?
	19	A NO, HE DID NOT TRY TO GO AROUND THE OCEAN
	20	SIDE.
	21	Q WHAT DID MR. BROWN INDICATE TO YOU THAT HE
	22	DID AFTER HE ARRIVED AT THE INLET AND SAW HIS DAUGHTER'S
	23	BODY FLOATING FACE DOWN IN THE WATER?
	24	FIRST, WHERE DID HE SAY HER BODY WAS
	25	FLOATING FACE DOWN IN THE WATER?
	26	A HE SAID SHE WAS FLOATING IN THE INLET,
	27	WHICH WOULD BE THE FURTHEST EAST INLET. SHE WAS ABOUT
	28	TWO-THIRDS OF THE WAY TOWARDS THE OCEAN FROM WHAT HE



		183
	1	DESCRIBED AS THE FLAT ROCKS.
	2	Q AND SO WHEN MR. BROWN SAW HIS DAUGHTER
	3	FLOATING FACE DOWN IN THE INLET, WHAT DID HE SAY HE DID?
	4	A HE TOOK HIS CLOTHING OFF.
	5	Q AND WHAT CLOTHING DID HE SAY HE TOOK OFF?
	6	A HE REMOVED HIS FLANNEL OVERSHIRT, HIS
	7	T-SHIRT AND HIS SHORTS, OR WALKING SHORTS -- I CALL THEM
	8	WALKING SHORTS -- AND PLACED THEM ON THE ROCKS.
	9	Q AND DID MR. BROWN INDICATE TO YOU WHY, WHEN
	10	HIS DAUGHTER IS FLOATING IN THE WATER, HE DECIDES TO GET
	11	UNDRESSED?
	12	A YES, HE DID.
	13	Q AND WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THAT?
	14	A HE SAID THAT HE HAD SEEN IT ON THE
	15	TELEVISION PROGRAM "BAYWATCH" AND THAT HE DID NOT WANT TO
	16	BE WET OR COLD LATER ON.
	17	Q WHAT DID MR. BROWN INDICATE THAT HE DID
	18	AFTER HE TOOK OFF MOST OF HIS CLOTHES WHEN HE SAW LAUREN
	19	FLOATING IN THE WATER?
	20	A HE SAID THAT HE WAS DRESSED IN ONLY HIS
	21	BOXER SHORTS AND HIS SHOES, THEN ENTERED THE WATER, SWAM
	22	OUT TO WHERE LAUREN'S BODY WAS, PULLED HER TOWARDS THE
	23	EAST ROCK LINE AT THE INLET, SET HER ON TOP OF A FLAT
	24	ROCK AND THEN CLIMBED OUT OF THE WATER.
	25	Q AND WHAT DID HE INDICATE HE DID THEN?
	26	A HE THEN SAID THAT HE PERFORMED C.P.R.,
	27	CARDIOPULMONARY RESUSCITATION, ON THE CHILD, AND HE
	28	ESTIMATED THAT IT WAS ABOUT ONE MINUTE.



		184
	1	Q AND THEN WHAT DID HE SAY HE DID?
	2	A HE THEN TOLD US THAT HE REMOVED HIS WET
	3	BOXER SHORTS, FLUNG THEM WITH HIS FOOT, TELLING US THAT
	4	WE WOULD STILL FIND THEM THERE -- AND THE BLUE BOXER
	5	SHORTS DID, IN FACT, BELONG TO HIM -- HE PUT HIS SHORTS
	6	BACK ON, HE PLACED HIS T-SHIRT BACK ON AND TIED HIS
	7	FLANNEL SHIRT AROUND HIS WAIST.
	8	Q AND THIS IS WHILE LAUREN IS ON THE ROCKS?
	9	A THIS IS WHILE LAUREN IS LAYING ON THE ROCKS
	10	ADJACENT TO THE INLET, YES.
	11	Q AND THEN WHAT DID MR. BROWN SAY HE DID?
	12	A HE SAID HE PICKED HER UP, PUT HER OVER HIS
	13	LEFT SHOULDER AND BEGAN RUNNING TO WHERE THE PARAMEDICS
	14	WOULD BE COMING.
	15	Q AND WHAT DID HE SAY OCCURRED AS HE WAS
	16	RUNNING BACK TOWARDS WHERE THE PARAMEDICS WERE GOING TO
	17	BE COMING?
	18	A HE TOLD US THAT HE FELT WETNESS ON HIS BACK
	19	AND THAT HE WAS BECOMING BLOOD SOAKED ON THE BACK OF HIS
	20	SHIRT, SO HE PUT THE CHILD IN FRONT OF HIM AND CARRIED
	21	HER BASICALLY IN A CRADLE POSITION FOR THE REMAINDER OF
	22	THE DISTANCE THAT HE TRAVELED TO THE ARCHERY RANGE.
	23	Q AND WHAT DID MR. BROWN SAY HE DID WHEN HE
	24	GOT TO THE ARCHERY RANGE?
	25	A HE HAD ACTUALLY MET UP WITH A GENTLEMAN
	26	THERE; I BELIEVE THEY HAD A BRIEF CONVERSATION, AND HE
	27	TOLD THIS PERSON THAT HE WAS GOING TO SET THE CHILD ON
	28	THE TABLES. HE PROCEEDED TO A COVERED AWNING AREA. I



		185
	1	CALLED IT A PICNIC AREA. IT HAD THREE LONG TABLES AND
	2	BENCHES. AND HE PLACED HER ON THE TABLE AND, HIS WORDS
	3	WERE, STRAIGHTENED HER OUT, WHICH TO ME IS POSITIONING --
	4	HE STRAIGHTENED HER ARMS AND HER LEGS AND LAID HER ON THE
	5	PICNIC TABLE.
	6	Q ARE THERE PICNIC TABLES OUT THERE THAT
	7	AREN'T UNDER ANY KIND OF A COVERING?
	8	A YEAH, THERE ARE. THERE WERE A COUPLE THAT
	9	WERE SET OFF TO THE SIDE.
	10	Q DID MR. BROWN INDICATE HOW LONG IT TOOK THE
	11	PARAMEDICS TO GET THERE AFTER HE HAD SET LAUREN ON THE
	12	PICNIC TABLE?
	13	A THREE MINUTES.
	14	Q DID YOU ASK MR. BROWN WHETHER OR NOT HE
	15	TRIED TO PERFORM C.P.R. WHILE SHE WAS ON THE PICNIC TABLE
	16	AND THERE WAS ACTUALLY SOMEONE ELSE PRESENT?
	17	A YES, I DID.
	18	Q WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THAT?
	19	A HE TOLD US HE DID NOT HAVE TIME.
	20	Q I THINK YOU INDICATED THAT MR. BROWN TOLD
	21	YOU THEY HAD BEEN OUT ON INSPIRATION POINT FOR ABOUT HOW
	22	LONG BEFORE LAUREN WENT OVER THE CLIFF?
	23	A HE SAID THEY WERE OUT THERE FOR ABOUT 15
	24	MINUTES AND HAD BEEN -- 10 TO 15 MINUTES AND HAD BEEN
	25	SEATED FOR ABOUT FIVE, I BELIEVE IS WHAT HE SAID.
	26	Q DID MR. BROWN INDICATE TO YOU ABOUT HOW
	27	LONG IT TOOK HIM FROM THE TIME LAUREN WENT OVER THE CLIFF
	28	UNTIL HE GOT TO HER BODY FLOATING IN THE WATER?



		186
	1	A ANOTHER 10 MINUTES.
	2	Q DID YOU ASK MR. BROWN ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT
	3	HIS STATEMENT THAT AFTER HE USED THE CELLPHONE HE RAN AS
	4	HARD AS HE COULD BACK UP THE CLIFF, DOWN THE OTHER SIDE,
	5	ON THE ARCHERY RANGE SIDE, AND THEN OUT TO THE POINT
	6	WHERE LAUREN'S BODY WAS FOUND?
	7	A YES, I DID.
	8	Q AND WHY DID YOU ASK HIM QUESTIONS ABOUT
	9	THAT?
	10	A I HAD BEEN THERE, I HAD TRAVERSED THAT
	11	AREA. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I ALSO ACTUALLY USED TO DO SOME
	12	RUNNING AND TRAIL RUNNING; AND I KNOW THAT IT IS VERY
	13	EASY, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE RUNNING, TO LOSE YOUR
	14	BALANCE AND TRIP AND FALL, WHICH WOULD BE EXPECTED IF YOU
	15	ARE RUNNING AS HARD AS YOU COULD, WHICH WOULD BE EXPECTED
	16	IN THAT GIVEN CIRCUMSTANCE SINCE THE AREA THAT YOU WOULD
	17	HAVE TO TRAVERSE HAS VERY SHARP ANGLED ROCKS. IT IS VERY
	18	UNEVEN, VERY UNSTEADY FOOTING.
	19	I WOULD EXPECT OR EXPECTED TO SEE CUTS,
	20	ABRASIONS ON THE SHINS, KNEES, EVEN THE HANDS IF YOU ARE
	21	REALLY, REALLY TRYING TO MAKE YOUR WAY THROUGH THAT AREA
	22	AS FAST AS YOU COULD; AND I DID NOT SEE ANY OF THAT.
	23	Q ON MR. BROWN?
	24	A ON MR. BROWN.
	25	Q DID YOU ASK HIM ABOUT THAT?
	26	A I DID.
	27	Q AND WHAT DID HE SAY?
	28	A HIS RESPONSE WAS, "WELL, I WAS RUNNING AS



		187
	1	FAST AS I COULD, BUT I WAS WATCHING MY FOOTING."
	2	Q DID YOU ASK MR. BROWN WHETHER OR NOT HE
	3	SCREAMED OR YELLED WHEN LAUREN WENT OVER THE CLIFF?
	4	A I DID.
	5	Q AND WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THAT?
	6	A HE SAID NO.
	7	Q WHAT DID YOU SAY WHEN HE GAVE YOU THAT
	8	RESPONSE?
	9	A I THINK AT THAT POINT IN THE INTERVIEW BOTH
	10	MY PARTNER AND I PRETTY MUCH IN UNISON SAID THAT, BOTH
	11	HAVING CHILDREN, WE WOULD BOTH BE SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER
	12	HAD IT BEEN OUR CHILDREN WHO HAD SLIPPED AND FALLEN.
	13	HE SEEMED TO PONDER ON THAT MOMENTARILY AND
	14	THEN TOLD US, "I THINK I MAY HAVE CALLED HER NAME."
	15	Q DID YOU ASK MR. BROWN WHY HE WOULD TAKE HIS
	16	DAUGHTER, HIS FOUR-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER, OUT TO SUCH A
	17	DANGEROUS PLACE?
	18	A YES, I DID.
	19	Q AND WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THAT?
	20	A HIS RESPONSE WAS VERY INTERESTING. WHAT HE
	21	TOLD ME WAS THE WHOLE PLACE IS DANGEROUS, IT'S NICE, IT'S
	22	STEEP, THE CLIFFS, AND THEN HE SEEMED JUST TO FADE OFF
	23	AND NEVER FINISH THE THOUGHT OR THE SENTENCE, AT LEAST
	24	AUDIBLY.
	25	Q DID YOU ASK MR. BROWN WHETHER OR NOT THERE
	26	WAS ANYONE ELSE OUT ON INSPIRATION POINT AT THE TIME THAT
	27	MAY HAVE SEEN WHAT HAD HAPPENED?
	28	A YES, I DID.



		188
	1	Q WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THAT?
	2	A HE SAID THAT HE DID NOT BELIEVE ANYBODY
	3	ELSE WAS OUT THERE.
	4	Q DID MR. BROWN ALSO INDICATE TO YOU THAT HE
	5	HAD SOME TYPE OF A CAMERA?
	6	A YES, HE DID.
	7	Q TELL US HOW THAT CAME UP.
	8	A THAT WAS TOLD TO US BY THE HANDLING PATROL
	9	DEPUTIES. DEPUTIES GIRMES AND BROTHERS HAD INDICATED
	10	THAT HE HAD BROUGHT THAT TO THEIR ATTENTION WHEN THEY HAD
	11	ORIGINALLY CONTACTED HIM.
	12	AND HE HAD ALSO TOLD US WHEN QUESTIONED,
	13	YES, THAT HE DID HAVE A CAMERA, HE HAD TAKEN WHAT HE
	14	BELIEVED TO BE FOUR PHOTOGRAPHS OF LAUREN; THEY WERE
	15	ENJOYING THE DAY, THEY WERE RELAXING, AND THESE
	16	PHOTOGRAPHS WOULD PROVE TO US THAT -- OR WOULD SHOW US
	17	THAT SHE WAS HAPPY, THEY WERE HAVING A GOOD TIME AND THEY
	18	WERE JUST OUT FOR A LEISURELY DAY.
	19	Q AND DID YOU HAVE THOSE PICTURES DEVELOPED?
	20	A YES, I DID.
	21	Q HOW MANY TOTAL PHOTOS COULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN
	22	ON THIS DISPOSABLE CAMERA?
	23	A TWENTY-SEVEN.
	24	Q AND WERE THERE SOME -- WERE THERE ANY
	25	PHOTOS OF LAUREN?
	26	A YES.
	27	Q AND HOW MANY?
	28	A THREE.



		189
	1	Q PRIOR TO THE PHOTOS OF LAUREN WERE THERE
	2	OTHER PHOTOS?
	3	A YES.
	4	Q AND WHAT WERE THOSE OF?
	5	A THIRTEEN PHOTOGRAPHS OF -- WELL, A COUPLE
	6	WERE BLURRY AND YOU COULDN'T TELL WHAT THEY WERE; AND
	7	THEN THERE WERE 13 PHOTOGRAPHS OF CAMERON LOADING
	8	SURFBOARDS ONTO A SUBARU STATION WAGON; HIS FATHER WITH
	9	SOME SURFBOARDS. JUST BASICALLY HIM AND HIS FATHER.
	10	Q OKAY. AND THEN THERE WERE THREE PHOTOS OF
	11	LAUREN?
	12	A THREE PHOTOGRAPHS OF LAUREN THAT WERE TAKEN
	13	THAT DAY.
	14	Q AND WHERE WERE THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN?
	15	COULD YOU TELL FROM THE PHOTOS?
	16	A YES. YES. HAVING BEEN THERE, YES.
	17	Q WHERE WERE THEY TAKEN?
	18	A THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPH WAS TAKEN AT THE
	19	ABALONE COVE PARKING LOT IN VERY, VERY CLOSE PROXIMITY TO
	20	WHERE HE PARKED HIS CAR AND NEAR THE PAY TELEPHONE THAT'S
	21	AT THE EAST END OF THE ABALONE COVE SHORELINE PARK
	22	PARKING AREA.
	23	Q AND WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER TWO?
	24	A THE SECOND PHOTOGRAPH WAS TAKEN AS YOU
	25	DESCEND THE STEEP LITTLE TRAIL THAT GOES FROM THE ABALONE
	26	COVE PARKING LOT. AT ONE POINT THAT TRAIL JOINS WITH THE
	27	ROAD THAT YOU COULD ACTUALLY ACCESS IF THE SCHOOL IS OPEN
	28	OFF PALOS VERDES DRIVE SOUTH. THEY MAKE KIND OF A



		190
	1	T-INTERSECTION, THE TRAIL AND THE ROAD. AND JUST ON THE
	2	OTHER SIDE OF THE ROAD THERE IS A FLAT AREA WITH A LARGE
	3	BUSH AND THEN THE BEACH WOULD BE BEHIND AND BELOW YOU.
	4	AND THERE WAS A PHOTOGRAPH OF LAUREN TAKEN AT THAT POINT.
	5	Q AND THEN WHAT ABOUT THE THIRD ONE?
	6	A THE THIRD PHOTOGRAPH WAS ACTUALLY TAKEN AT
	7	THE PRESCHOOL PLAYGROUND AREA ITSELF. AND IN THAT
	8	PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPH LAUREN IS IN A TUBE OR TUNNEL, AND
	9	YOU CAN PARTIALLY SEE HER AS SHE IS CLIMBING THROUGH OR
	10	LOOKING OUT.
	11	Q AND WHAT WERE HER EXPRESSIONS LIKE IN
	12	THOSE? DID SHE SEEM LIKE SHE WAS CRYING? DID SHE SEEM
	13	JUST NONCHALANT OR HAPPY, LAUGHING?
	14	A NO, SHE WAS NOT CRYING. SHE WAS NOT HAPPY.
	15	SHE WAS NOT LAUGHING. SHE SEEMED ALMOST RATHER
	16	INDIFFERENT, UNEASY. IN THE PICTURE -- AND, AGAIN, I AM
	17	GOING OFF MY PERCEPTION OF THE PHOTOGRAPH BUT, IN
	18	PARTICULAR, THE PICTURE IN THE TUNNEL TO ME SHE ALMOST
	19	LOOKS WARY OR UNEASY OR SCARED.
	20	Q DO THEY APPEAR TO YOU TO DEPICT A HAPPY
	21	CHILD?
	22	A NO. NO.
	23	Q NOW, WERE THERE ADDITIONAL -- WAS THERE
	24	ADDITIONAL FILM THAT MORE PHOTOGRAPHS COULD HAVE BEEN
	25	TAKEN ON THAT CAMERA?
	26	A YES, THERE WERE SEVERAL PHOTOGRAPHS
	27	REMAINING UNEXPOSED.
	28	Q WERE THERE ANY FURTHER PHOTOGRAPHS AFTER



		191
	1	THE PLAYGROUND?
	2	A THERE WAS NO PICTURES TAKEN AFTER THEY LEFT
	3	THE PLAYGROUND.
	4	Q SO NOTHING OF THE HIKES?
	5	A NO.
	6	Q NOTHING ON INSPIRATION POINT?
	7	A NOTHING ON INSPIRATION POINT, NOTHING ON
	8	THE VIEW THAT THEY WERE ENJOYING, NOTHING ONCE THEY LEFT
	9	THE PLAYGROUND AREA.
	10	Q NOW, YOU MENTIONED A LITTLE BIT EARLIER
	11	THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAUGHT YOUR ATTENTION WAS
	12	MR. BROWN'S DEMEANOR. CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US
	13	MR. BROWN'S DEMEANOR DURING THIS INTERVIEW?
	14	FIRST, HOW LONG DID THIS INTERVIEW TAKE,
	15	WOULD YOU SAY, ABOUT?
	16	A FOUR HOURS.
	17	Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE HIS DEMEANOR DURING THIS
	18	INTERVIEW?
	19	A TO AN EXTENT. I THINK I SAID YESTERDAY,
	20	AND I REALLY TRULY BELIEVE THAT THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO
	21	DESCRIBE IT, JUST A TOTAL LACK OF EMOTION, A TOTAL LACK
	22	OF RESPONSIBILITY, ALMOST UNATTACHED. IT JUST WAS NOT
	23	APPROPRIATE FOR THE CIRCUMSTANCES WHICH WE WERE
	24	DISCUSSING.
	25	IN MY EXPERIENCE -- AND I HAVE TALKED TO A
	26	LOT OF GRIEVING FAMILY MEMBERS OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS --
	27	IRREGARDLESS OF HOW A CHILD DIES, IT SEEMS TO ME, AT
	28	LEAST HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE, THAT PARENTS ALWAYS BLAME



		192
	1	THEMSELVES. HOWEVER FAR REMOVED THEIR ROLE WAS, THEY
	2	BLAME THEMSELVES FOR SOMETHING, LETTING THE KID GO TO
	3	SCHOOL THAT DAY, LETTING THE KID DO WHATEVER, WALK TO THE
	4	POOL, WHATEVER IT WAS. THERE IS A RESPONSIBILITY THERE;
	5	THERE IS A BLAME, THEY BLAME THEMSELVES.
	6	AND THERE WAS JUST ABSOLUTELY NO EMOTION,
	7	NO RESPONSIBILITY, NO GUILT, NO -- THERE WAS NOTHING. IT
	8	WAS JUST VERY, VERY "LET'S GET THROUGH THIS" AND VERY, I
	9	WANT TO SAY, MATTER OF FACT; BUT THERE WAS NOT EVEN THAT
	10	EMOTION. IT WAS JUST GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS, IF YOU
	11	WILL.
	12	Q DID MR. BROWN EVER CRY OR EXPRESS REMORSE
	13	DURING YOUR INTERVIEW?
	14	A NOT AT ALL.
	15	Q DID HE EVER USE LAUREN'S NAME DURING THE
	16	INTERVIEW?
	17	A NO. IN FACT, THAT WAS THE ONE THING THAT
	18	DAWNED ON ME OR HIT ME THE HARDEST. WE HAD BEEN TALKING
	19	FOR SEVERAL HOURS AND HAD ACTUALLY CONFRONTED HIM AT THAT
	20	POINT WITH "WE BELIEVE THAT YOU'RE LYING. WITNESSES WHO
	21	SAW THIS INCIDENT, YOUR STORY DOESN'T CORRELATE TO WHAT
	22	THEY WERE SAYING," AND HAD ACTUALLY CONFRONTED HIM WITH
	23	LYING AND BEING RESPONSIBLE AND AT FAULT FOR THIS.
	24	AND IT DAWNED ON ME THAT IN SPEAKING IN
	25	THREE, THREE-AND-A-HALF, FOUR HOURS, HE NEVER ONCE CALLED
	26	THIS LITTLE GIRL BY HER NAME. HE ALWAYS REFERRED TO HER
	27	THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION AS HER OR SHE, "SHE
	28	DID THIS"; "I TOLD HER THIS." NEVER ONCE DID HE SAY HER



		193
	1	NAME.
	2	Q DID MR. BROWN INDICATE ANYTHING TO YOU
	3	ABOUT THE SHIRT THAT HE WAS WEARING?
	4	A YES.
	5	Q WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THAT?
	6	A HE TOLD US THAT WE WERE MORE THAN WELCOME
	7	TO HAVE IT. I BELIEVE THAT WAS AT THE POINT WE WERE
	8	PHOTOGRAPHING THE T-SHIRT. AND HE BASICALLY SAID, "YOU
	9	GUYS CAN HAVE THIS IF YOU WANT IT. I AM JUST GOING TO
	10	THROW IT AWAY."
	11	Q DID YOU AT SOME POINT TOWARDS THE END OF
	12	THE INTERVIEW CONFRONT MR. BROWN WITH THE FACT THAT IT
	13	SEEMED REALLY ODD THAT HE WAS SHOWING ABSOLUTELY NO
	14	EMOTION?
	15	A YES.
	16	Q AND WHAT DID MR. BROWN SAY ABOUT THAT?
	17	A IT WAS ACTUALLY SEVERAL TIMES WE CONFRONTED
	18	HIM WITH SHOWING NO EMOTION. FINALLY HE CONCEDED TO US
	19	THAT EARLIER HE HAD BEEN HYSTERICAL AND WAS NOT ABLE TO
	20	STOP CRYING AND HAD BEEN CRYING VERY HEAVILY AND TOLD US
	21	THAT THAT WAS DURING THE TIME THAT HE WAS ON THE
	22	CELLPHONE MAKING THE CALL TO 911.
	23	Q SO HE INDICATED TO YOU THAT DURING THE 911
	24	CALL HE WAS CRYING HYSTERICALLY?
	25	A COULD NOT STOP CRYING IS WHAT HE TOLD US.
	26	Q DID YOU GET THE TAPE OF THAT 911 CALL?
	27	A YES, I DID.
	28	Q AND DO WE HAVE IT HERE IN COURT TODAY?



		194
	1	A YES, I BELIEVE WE DO.
	2	Q DID YOU, TOWARDS THE END OF THE INTERVIEW,
	3	ATTEMPT TO ELICIT SOME EMOTION FROM MR. BROWN BY SAYING
	4	ANYTHING TO HIM OR DOING ANYTHING TO TRY AND ELICIT SOME
	5	EMOTION OR SOME ACCEPTANCE OF RESPONSIBILITY?
	6	A YES.
	7	Q AND CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU DID?
	8	A BOTH VERBALLY AND -- TELLING HIM THAT "YOU
	9	HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS. YOU ARE THE ADULT
	10	HERE. THAT YOUNG GIRL IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY." IT
	11	REALLY DIDN'T SEEM TO GO ANYWHERE.
	12	HE JUST KEPT SAYING, "NO, NO, NO. IT WAS
	13	HER IDEA, SHE WANTED TO GO OUT THERE. I WAS JUST TRYING
	14	TO KEEP UP WITH HER."
	15	WE THEN WENT TO TELLING HIM THAT HE HAD
	16	THROWN, PUSHED, SHOVED HER OVER THE CLIFF. AGAIN THERE
	17	WAS NO EMOTIONAL RESPONSE. IT WAS, "NO, I TOLD YOU WHAT
	18	HAPPENED. I SAW YOU WRITE IT DOWN RIGHT THERE IN YOUR
	19	NOTEBOOK. IT'S ALL THERE. I TOLD YOU WHAT HAPPENED."
	20	ULTIMATELY, AND I GUESS I HAVE TO ADMIT A
	21	LITTLE BIT OUT OF FRUSTRATION, WE PUT A POLAROID PICTURE
	22	IN FRONT OF HIM OF LAUREN THAT WAS TAKEN BY THE L.A.
	23	COUNTY CORONER AND PROVIDED TO US THAT NIGHT OF HER. IT
	24	WAS A FACE SHOT OF HER BLUNT-FORCE TRAUMA TO HER HEAD.
	25	AND WE PLACED IT IN FRONT OF HIM AND TOLD HIM TO LOOK AT
	26	IT.
	27	Q AND WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE?
	28	A HE PICKED IT UP, AND HE LOOKED AND POINTED



		195
	1	AND SAID, "YEAH, THAT'S HER RIGHT THERE," AND SAT THE
	2	PICTURE BACK IN FRONT OF HIM.
	3	Q NOW, DETECTIVE LESLIE, YOU HAVE BEEN UP TO
	4	THE TOP OF INSPIRATION POINT A NUMBER OF TIMES SINCE THIS
	5	HAPPENED, CORRECT?
	6	A YES, SEVERAL TIMES.
	7	Q AND, AGAIN, AS YOU'RE STANDING ON
	8	INSPIRATION POINT, THE ARCHERY RANGE WOULD BE TO YOUR
	9	LEFT AS YOU ARE FACING THE OCEAN, CORRECT?
	10	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	11	Q AND THE NUDE BEACH, OR SACREDS COVE, WOULD
	12	BE TO YOUR RIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT?
	13	A YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
	14	Q DID MR. BROWN EVER EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY IT
	15	WAS THAT AFTER LAUREN WENT OVER THE CLIFF HE DIDN'T JUST
	16	RUN TO THE SACREDS COVE SIDE OF THE CLIFF AND HOLLER DOWN
	17	FOR THE PEOPLE DOWN BELOW TO CALL 911?
	18	A THERE WAS NEVER ANY EXPLANATION PROVIDED.
	19	Q HAVING BEEN UP THERE, IS THERE ANYTHING
	20	THAT WOULD PREVENT SOMEONE FROM GOING TO THAT SIDE OF THE
	21	CLIFF AND HOLLERING DOWN TO PEOPLE JUST BELOW ON THE
	22	BEACH THAT THEY NEEDED HELP OR TO CALL 911?
	23	A ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
	24	Q DID MR. BROWN EVER EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY IT
	25	WAS THAT, AFTER LAUREN WENT OVER THE CLIFF, RATHER THAN
	26	RUNNING BACK ACROSS THE NECK OF INSPIRATION POINT AND
	27	GOING DOWN TO THE RIGHT SIDE SO THAT HE COULD ACCESS
	28	LAUREN'S BODY, WHY IT WAS THAT INSTEAD HE FIRST WENT TO



		196
	1	THE LEFT, DOWN TO SACREDS COVE, TO GET A CELLPHONE BEFORE
	2	HE WENT TO HER BODY?
	3	A NO.
	4	Q HE NEVER OFFERED ANY EXPLANATION FOR THAT?
	5	A THE ONLY THING I CAN RECALL IS THAT I THINK
	6	HE SAID HE SAW SOME PEOPLE DOWN THERE AS THEY HAD PASSED
	7	EARLIER.
	8	Q BUT HE NEVER EXPLAINED WHY HE DIDN'T TRY TO
	9	GET TO HER BODY FIRST?
	10	A OH, NO. NO, THAT WAS NEVER EXPLAINED.
	11	Q DID HE EVER EXPRESS TO YOU THAT HE KNEW --
	12	WHETHER OR NOT HE KNEW IF HE COULD GET TO LAUREN'S BODY
	13	FROM THE SACREDS COVE SIDE OF THE BEACH?
	14	DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION?
	15	A I THINK SO.
	16	Q OKAY. DID MR. BROWN EVER SAY TO YOU
	17	SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF, "WELL, WHEN I WENT DOWN TO
	18	SACREDS COVE, I DIDN'T KNOW I COULDN'T GET AROUND TO HER
	19	BODY"?
	20	A NO.
	21	Q DID HE EVER SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
	22	A NEVER.
	23	Q AND MR. BROWN, I BELIEVE YOU SAID,
	24	INDICATED TO YOU THAT -- ORIGINALLY HE CLAIMED IT WAS NOT
	25	HIS INTENTION TO GO TO THE BEACH, CORRECT?
	26	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	27	Q AND IT WAS NOT HIS INTENTION TO GO HIKING?
	28	A NO.



		197
	1	Q DID MR. BROWN EVER EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY HE
	2	WAS WEARING THE CLOTHING THAT HE WAS WEARING IF HE HAD
	3	INTENDED TO TAKE HIS DAUGHTER BACK TO HIS APARTMENT?
	4	A NO.
	5	Q NOW, YOU SAID THAT YOU STARTED THE
	6	INTERVIEW OF MR. BROWN AT ABOUT 12:20, 12:25 IN THE
	7	MORNING ON NOVEMBER 9TH; IS THAT CORRECT?
	8	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	9	Q AND YOU SAID IT LASTED ABOUT FOUR HOURS; IS
	10	THAT CORRECT?
	11	A IT WAS ABOUT FOUR HOURS, YES.
	12	Q LATER ON THAT DAY, WHICH WOULD BE
	13	NOVEMBER 9TH STILL, DID YOU AND YOUR PARTNER GO TO THE
	14	LOCATION AND ACTUALLY GO UP ONTO THE TOP OF INSPIRATION
	15	POINT?
	16	A YES. NOW THAT IT WAS DAYLIGHT, WE DID
	17	TRAVERSE OUT TO THE END OF THE POINT.
	18	Q WAS THIS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU HAD BEEN
	19	UP THERE WITH REGARD TO THIS INVESTIGATION?
	20	A WITH REGARD TO THIS INVESTIGATION?
	21	Q CORRECT.
	22	A THIS INVESTIGATION, YES.
	23	Q DO YOU REMEMBER ABOUT WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN
	24	YOU AND YOUR PARTNER WENT OUT THERE?
	25	A SOMETIME IN THE AFTERNOON. 1:00,
	26	2:00 O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON.
	27	Q FROM THE TIME THAT THIS HAPPENED, FROM THE
	28	TIME HOMICIDE WAS NOTIFIED UNTIL THE TIME YOU AND YOUR



		198
	1	PARTNER WENT OUT TO INSPIRATION POINT THE NEXT DAY, WAS
	2	THAT SCENE SECURED?
	3	A YES.
	4	Q AND HOW WAS THAT SCENE SECURED?
	5	A TWO UNIFORMED SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES, I BELIEVE
	6	IT WAS A TWO-MAN CAR, WE MADE THEM SIT THERE ALL NIGHT
	7	UNTIL WE RETURNED THE FOLLOWING MORNING -- OR DAY.
	8	Q AND THE PURPOSE OF DOING THAT WAS WHAT?
	9	A TO PRESERVE THE INTEGRITY OF THE SCENE, SO
	10	NOBODY ELSE COULD GO OUT THERE.
	11	Q NOW, WHEN YOU WENT OUT TO INSPIRATION
	12	POINT, DID YOU WALK THROUGH THIS NECK AREA THAT YOU HAVE
	13	DESCRIBED FOR US AND GO OUT ONTO THE WIDER PORTION OF
	14	INSPIRATION POINT?
	15	A YES, I DID.
	16	Q AND DID YOU LOOK ALONG THE CLIFF?
	17	A YES.
	18	Q DID YOU FIND ANYTHING THAT SEEMED
	19	SIGNIFICANT TO YOU IN ANY PART OF THAT AREA?
	20	A YES.
	21	Q TELL US WHAT THAT WAS.
	22	A AT THE END OF THE CLIFF ON THE LEFT SIDE,
	23	THAT AREA THAT SLOPES DOWN THAT I DESCRIBED YESTERDAY IN
	24	THE PHOTOGRAPHS, MY PARTNER AND I NOTED WHAT APPEARED TO
	25	BE SOME SHOE OR FOOT IMPRESSIONS IN THE DIRT. AND THEY
	26	LOOKED AS IF THEY WERE SIDEWAYS, NOT WALKING STRAIGHT
	27	DOWN, BUT AS IF YOU WERE STEPPING SIDEWAYS. AND THE AREA
	28	AROUND IT WAS UNDISTURBED, BUT THEY WERE -- I WOULDN'T



		199
	1	SAY REAL DISTINCTIVE, BUT YOU COULD TELL THERE WERE
	2	IMPRESSIONS MADE THAT SEEMED TO GO DOWNWARDS IN THAT
	3	PARTICULAR AREA.
	4	Q AND THOSE, WHAT APPEARED TO BE FOOTPRINTS,
	5	WERE THOSE IN THE SAME AREA THAT MATCHED THE DESCRIPTION
	6	OF WHERE MR. BROWN HAD SAID HE AND LAUREN HAD BEEN?
	7	A YEAH. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT IT ALSO WOULD
	8	CORRELATE TO WHERE HER BODY WAS RECOVERED IN THE INLET ON
	9	THAT SIDE.
	10	Q DID YOU GO DOWN AND INSPECT THOSE
	11	FOOTPRINTS AT THAT TIME?
	12	A NO.
	13	Q DID YOU, IN FACT, REQUEST MR. FALICON AND
	14	SOME EMERGENCY SERVICES PEOPLE TO RESPOND AND ASSIST YOU
	15	WITH THAT?
	16	A YEAH. TRYING TO DOCUMENT OR PRESERVE THOSE
	17	WAS WAY TOO DANGEROUS WITHOUT PROPER SAFETY EQUIPMENT, SO
	18	WE MADE ARRANGEMENTS THE FOLLOWING DAY TO HAVE OUR
	19	EMERGENCY SERVICES DETAIL COME OUT, ALONG WITH A
	20	PHOTOGRAPHER AND SOMEBODY WHO HAD THE ABILITY TO CAST.
	21	REALLY NOBODY ELSE WANTED TO DO IT EXCEPT FOR DALE
	22	FALICON.
	23	Q AND THE NEXT DAY, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN
	24	NOVEMBER 10TH OF 2000, DID, IN FACT, MR. FALICON GO OUT
	25	THERE AND DOCUMENT THOSE IMPRESSIONS THAT YOU HAD SEEN
	26	AND TAKE PLASTER CASTS OF MOST OF THEM?
	27	A YES, HE DID.
	28	Q AND YOU WERE THERE WHEN THAT HAPPENED?



		200
	1	A YES.
	2	Q NOW, I THINK THAT YOU TESTIFIED
	3	YESTERDAY -- LET ME BACK UP A LITTLE BIT.
	4	OTHER THAN THOSE IMPRESSIONS IN THAT AREA,
	5	DID YOU SEE ANYTHING ELSE OUT THERE THAT APPEARED TO BE
	6	FRESH IMPRESSIONS ALONG THE EDGE OF THE CLIFF -- ALONG
	7	THE EDGE OF THE CLIFF AT ALL?
	8	A NO. THE REMAINDER OF THE DIRT WAS
	9	UNDISTURBED IN THAT AREA.
	10	Q NOW, I THINK YOU TOLD US YESTERDAY THAT
	11	AFTER YOU GO THROUGH WHAT YOU HAVE REFERRED TO AS THE
	12	NECK OF THE PATH AND OUT ONTO THE POINT THAT THE TRAIL
	13	NATURALLY TAKES YOU OFF TO THE RIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT?
	14	A YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
	15	Q AND THAT WOULD BE THE SACREDS COVE/NUDE
	16	BEACH SIDE OF INSPIRATION POINT, CORRECT?
	17	A YES.
	18	Q AND THEN YOU CAN ACTUALLY FOLLOW -- IF YOU
	19	CONTINUE ON THE TRAIL, IT WILL GO ALONG THE FRONT EDGE OF
	20	THE CLIFF, THE OCEAN EDGE, AND IT WILL TAKE YOU TO THE
	21	LEFT SIDE OF THE POINT, WHICH IS THE ARCHERY RANGE SIDE,
	22	CORRECT?
	23	A YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
	24	Q AND THAT'S THE AREA WHERE MR. BROWN
	25	DESCRIBED FOR YOU, AND THAT'S THE AREA WHERE YOU FOUND
	26	THE FOOTPRINTS, CORRECT?
	27	A YES.
	28	Q LET ME ASK YOU THIS: IF ONE WERE TO GO, TO



		201
	1	TAKE THIS PATH TO THE RIGHT AS IT NORMALLY WOULD TAKE
	2	YOU, AND GO OUT TO THE END OF INSPIRATION POINT ON THE
	3	RIGHT SIDE, IF SOMEBODY IS STANDING IN THAT POSITION CAN
	4	THEY BE SEEN BY PEOPLE ON THE BEACH BELOW AT SACREDS
	5	COVE?
	6	A YES, YOU WILL BE VERY VISIBLE FROM NOT ONLY
	7	SACREDS COVE AND THE BEACH BELOW BUT ALSO PORTUGUESE
	8	POINT JUST TO THE WEST OF IT.
	9	Q SO IF YOU ARE STANDING ON THE POINT ON THE
	10	RIGHT SIDE, YOU CAN BE SEEN FROM THE BEACH AND FROM
	11	PORTUGUESE POINT?
	12	A THAT'S CORRECT. AND ALSO THE TRAILS THAT
	13	WOULD LEAD DOWN BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM.
	14	Q NOW, WHAT ABOUT THE LEFT SIDE OF
	15	INSPIRATION POINT WHERE MR. BROWN DESCRIBED HE WAS, WHERE
	16	YOU FOUND THE FOOTPRINTS; IF SOMEONE WERE STANDING THERE,
	17	CAN THEY BE SEEN FROM SACREDS COVE?
	18	A NO.
	19	Q CAN THEY BE SEEN FROM PORTUGUESE POINT?
	20	A NO.
	21	Q CAN THEY BE SEEN FROM THE BEACH BY THE
	22	ARCHERY RANGE?
	23	A NO.
	24	Q WHERE WOULD SOMEONE HAVE TO BE STANDING IN
	25	ORDER TO SEE AN INDIVIDUAL STANDING AT THE TOP OF
	26	INSPIRATION POINT WHERE CAMERON BROWN STATED HE WAS?
	27	A BECAUSE OF THE MAKEUP OF THE CLIFF AND THE
	28	WAY IT SLOPES DOWN, THE ONLY TWO PLACES THAT YOU CAN



		202
	1	POSSIBLY BE SEEN IS IF YOU WERE STANDING ON THE ROCKS,
	2	THE TIDE POOLS DIRECTLY BELOW, BUT ALMOST OUT TO WHERE IT
	3	MEETS WITH THE OCEAN, OR IF YOU WERE DIRECTLY OFFSHORE ON
	4	A BOAT OR A SHIP.
	5	Q SO YOU CAN'T BE SEEN FROM THE SHORE AT ALL?
	6	A NO.
	7	Q JUST SO WE ARE CLEAR, THE AREA WHERE
	8	CAMERON BROWN DESCRIBED LAUREN AS GOING OFF THE CLIFF, IS
	9	THAT A SHEER DROP? IN OTHER WORDS, IS THERE A LIP AND
	10	THEN IT IS JUST A STRAIGHT DROP DOWN, OR IS THERE SOME
	11	TYPE OF SLOPE TO THE CLIFF?
	12	A NO, THERE'S A SLOPE. IT IS NOT JUST A
	13	STRAIGHT DROP. IT IS A RATHER STEEP SLOPE, BUT IT'S A
	14	SLOPE.
	15	Q NOW, WHEN YOU WENT OUT TO INSPIRATION POINT
	16	WITH MR. FALICON ON THE 10TH OF NOVEMBER, DID SOMEBODY
	17	FROM THE EMERGENCY SERVICES BUREAU ALSO RAPPEL DOWN THE
	18	CLIFF IN THE AREA WHERE MR. BROWN HAD CLAIMED LAUREN HAD
	19	FALLEN?
	20	A YES, DEPUTY TERRY ASCHERIN.
	21	Q AND DID HE GIVE YOU OR RECOVER ANY EVIDENCE
	22	THAT HE FOUND ALONG THE FACE OF THE CLIFF?
	23	A NO. HE TOLD US THAT HE WAS UNABLE TO SEE
	24	ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT, IMPACTS OR BLOOD OR ANYTHING OF
	25	THAT SORT. NO EVIDENCE WAS RECOVERED BY HIM.
	26	Q NOW, DID YOU ALSO WALK THE ROUTE THAT
	27	CAMERON BROWN HAD DESCRIBED FOR YOU THAT HE CLAIMED HE
	28	AND LAUREN HAD WALKED THE DAY THAT SHE DIED?



		203
	1	A YES. I HAVE ACTUALLY WALKED IT SEVERAL
	2	TIMES.
	3	Q DID YOU WALK IT ON THE 10TH OF NOVEMBER?
	4	A YES. YES.
	5	Q AND DID YOU ATTEMPT TO MEASURE DISTANCES
	6	ALONG THAT ROUTE?
	7	A YES, WE DID.
	8	Q AND HOW DID YOU ATTEMPT TO MEASURE THE
	9	DISTANCE?
	10	A WALKING THE TRAILS, THE DISTANCE WAS
	11	MEASURED WITH A ROLL-A-TAPE, WHAT THEY USE IN TRAFFIC
	12	ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION. IT ROLLS ON TWO WHEELS AND
	13	CLICKS THE FEET AS YOU GO.
	14	WE DID OBTAIN A MEASUREMENT; HOWEVER,
	15	BECAUSE OF THE STEEPNESS AND THE ROCKS AND THE TRAILS, I
	16	DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S NECESSARILY PERFECTLY ACCURATE. IF
	17	ANYTHING, IT'S PROBABLY UNDER WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS BECAUSE
	18	OF THE SKIPPING, BUT WE DID OBTAIN A MEASUREMENT OF
	19	7,500 FEET.
	20	Q THAT'S FROM THE PARKING LOT AT ABALONE
	21	COVE, ALONG THE ROUTE THAT MR. BROWN DESCRIBED, UP TO THE
	22	END OF INSPIRATION POINT?
	23	A NO, IT'S UP TO THE POINT WHERE --
	24	7,500 FEET UP TO THE POINT WHERE INSPIRATION POINT WOULD
	25	INTERSECT WITH PALOS VERDES DRIVE SOUTH. YOU WOULD HAVE
	26	ANOTHER 212 FEET GOING OUT TOWARDS THE OCEAN OF
	27	INSPIRATION POINT ITSELF.
	28	Q YOU SAID 7,500 FEET?



		204
	1	A 7,500 FEET.
	2	Q IS THAT APPROXIMATELY A MILE AND A HALF?
	3	A I BELIEVE SO.
	4	Q DID YOU ALSO, JUST FOR SOME TYPE OF
	5	REFERENCE POINT, MEASURE THE DISTANCE ALONG THE ROAD FROM
	6	ABALONE COVE TO WHERE INSPIRATION POINT MEETS PALOS
	7	VERDES DRIVE SOUTH?
	8	A YEAH. THAT WAS DONE BY CAR, WITH A VEHICLE
	9	ODOMETER.
	10	Q AND HOW FAR IS THAT?
	11	A NINE-TENTHS OF A MILE FROM THE PARKING LOT
	12	TO WHERE INSPIRATION POINT WOULD INTERSECT WITH PALOS
	13	VERDES DRIVE SOUTH.
	14	Q NOW, OBVIOUSLY YOU HIKED THE ROUTE WITH
	15	YOUR PARTNER WHILE YOU WERE TAKING THE MEASUREMENTS,
	16	CORRECT?
	17	A YES.
	18	Q IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT TAKING THE
	19	MEASUREMENTS THAT MAKES YOU WALK ANY SLOWER THAN A NORMAL
	20	PACE?
	21	A NO. NO.
	22	Q HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU AND YOUR PARTNER
	23	TO MAKE THIS WALK THAT MR. BROWN CLAIMED HE AND LAUREN
	24	HAD TAKEN?
	25	A IT TOOK US 50 MINUTES, AND WE WERE WALKING
	26	AT A MODERATE PACE.
	27	MS. PRIVER: SORRY?
	28	Q BY MR. HUM: YOU SAY 50, FIVE OH?



		205
	1	A FIFTY, FIVE ZERO.
	2	Q AND YOU SAID YOU HAVE BEEN OUT THERE A
	3	NUMBER OF TIMES TO THE LOCATION, CORRECT?
	4	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	5	Q AND YOU HAVE HIKED THAT PATH A NUMBER OF
	6	TIMES?
	7	A YES.
	8	Q BACK IN MARCH OF 2001 DID YOU GO OUT THERE
	9	WITH THE CORONER, DR. CHINWAH, AND HIS BOSS, THE ACTUAL
	10	CORONER OF LOS ANGELES COUNTY --
	11	A DR. LAKSHMANAN, YES.
	12	Q -- AND SOME OTHER INDIVIDUALS, A PEDIATRIC
	13	CONSULTANT AND SOME OTHER SHERIFF'S PERSONNEL?
	14	A YES.
	15	Q AND DID YOU ALSO GO OUT THERE WITH ME AT
	16	LEAST THREE DIFFERENT TIMES?
	17	A YES.
	18	Q IS ONE OF THOSE TIMES WITH DR. TOBY HAYES?
	19	A YES.
	20	Q A FEW MORE QUESTIONS, DETECTIVE. ALSO AS
	21	PART OF YOUR INVESTIGATION DID YOU SUBPOENA AND OBTAIN
	22	FINANCIAL RECORDS ON CAMERON BROWN, INCLUDING BANK
	23	RECORDS ON HIS BANK ACCOUNTS, PAYROLL RECORDS FROM
	24	AMERICAN AIRLINES AND CREDIT RECORDS FROM THE CREDIT
	25	REPORT AGENCIES?
	26	A YES, I DID.
	27	Q AND DID YOU PROVIDE THOSE TO ME AND TO A
	28	FINANCIAL ANALYST FROM THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE BY



		206
	1	THE NAME OF JANE NGO?
	2	A YES, I DID.
	3	Q NOW, DETECTIVE, YOU TOLD US THAT MR. BROWN
	4	SAID HE MADE A 911 CALL FROM A CELLPHONE, CORRECT?
	5	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	6	Q AND YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH HOW 911 CALLS FROM
	7	CELLPHONES ARE ROUTED?
	8	A YES.
	9	Q HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?
	10	A 911'S FROM CELLULAR TELEPHONES GO DIRECTLY
	11	TO THE CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL COMMAND COMMUNICATION
	12	CENTER.
	13	Q AND FROM THERE ARE THEY ROUTED TO THE
	14	APPROPRIATE AGENCIES?
	15	A YES.
	16	Q DID YOU, IN FACT, GO TO THE CALIFORNIA
	17	HIGHWAY PATROL COMMUNICATION CENTER AND OBTAIN A COPY OF
	18	THE 911 CELLULAR CALL THAT MR. BROWN MADE?
	19	A YES, I DID.
	20	Q AND HAVE YOU LISTENED TO THAT TAPE?
	21	A SEVERAL TIMES.
	22	Q DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE VOICE OF THE CALLER ON
	23	IT AS MR. BROWN?
	24	A YES, I DO.
	25	Q NOW, THERE ARE ALSO SOME OTHER VOICES, THE
	26	PEOPLE WHO ANSWER THE 911 CALL, AS WELL AS WHAT APPEAR TO
	27	BE A COUPLE OF PEOPLE TALKING IN THE BACKGROUND; IS THAT
	28	CORRECT?



		207
	1	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	2	Q AND HAVE YOU ALSO REVIEWED A TRANSCRIPT
	3	THAT WAS PREPARED OF THE 911 CALL?
	4	A YES, I HAVE.
	5	Q AND IS THAT SUBSTANTIALLY ACCURATE AS TO
	6	WHAT THE 911 CALL SAYS?
	7	A YES.
	8	MS. PRIVER: DO YOU WANT TO PLAY THE TAPE?
	9	MR. HUM: YES.
	10	MS. PRIVER: DO YOU AGREE THAT THE COURT REPORTER
	11	DOES NOT NEED TO TAKE DOWN THE TAPE SINCE THERE IS A
	12	TRANSCRIPT IN EVIDENCE?
	13	MR. HUM: YES.
	14	MS. PRIVER: THE GRAND JURORS ARE ADMONISHED AND
	15	ADVISED THAT THE TRANSCRIPT IS PROVIDED TO ASSIST YOU,
	16	BUT THE TAPE IS ACTUALLY THE EVIDENCE. SO YOU MUST GO BY
	17	THE TAPE VERSUS THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE TAPE IF YOU FIND
	18	PERSONALLY, WHEN LISTENING TO IT, THAT THERE IS A
	19	DIFFERENCE.
	20	MR. HUM: THANK YOU.
	21	Q JUST SO WE ARE ALL CLEAR, THIS IS THE 911
	22	CALL THAT MR. BROWN MAKES WHERE HE SAYS HE WAS CRYING
	23	HYSTERICALLY AND COULDN'T STOP CRYING, CORRECT?
	24	A COULD NOT STOP CRYING, YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
	25
	26	(EXHIBIT 16 WAS PLAYED.)
	27
	28	Q BY MR. HUM: DETECTIVE LESLIE, DO YOU



		208
	1	RECOGNIZE THE VOICE OF THE CALLER AS THAT OF CAMERON
	2	BROWN?
	3	A YES, THAT'S CAMERON BROWN.
	4	Q THANK YOU, DETECTIVE.
	5	MR. HUM: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
	6	MS. PRIVER: ANY QUESTIONS BY ANY MEMBER OF THE
	7	GRAND JURY?
	8
	9	(PAUSE IN THE PROCEEDINGS.)
	10
	11	MS. PRIVER: FOR THE RECORD, THE TAPE ITSELF IS
	12	EXHIBIT 16 AND THE TRANSCRIPT IS EXHIBIT 17; IS THAT
	13	CORRECT?
	14	MR. HUM: YES.
	15
	16	(PAUSE IN THE PROCEEDINGS.)
	17
	18	MS. PRIVER: THERE IS QUITE A FEW QUESTIONS. WHY
	19	DON'T WE TAKE OUR MORNING RECESS BEFORE WE ASK THE
	20	QUESTIONS.
	21	MR. HUM: WE CAN.
	22	MS. PRIVER: DETECTIVE LESLIE, YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY
	23	BEEN ADMONISHED REGARDING THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF THE
	24	GRAND JURY.
	25	DO YOU RECALL THAT ADMONITION?
	26	THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM; I DO.
	27	MS. PRIVER: BECAUSE OF THE HOUR, WE ARE GOING TO
	28	TAKE OUR MORNING RECESS. THERE IS QUITE A FEW QUESTIONS.



		209
	1	PERHAPS WE CAN BE MORE EFFICIENT IF WE TAKE A BREAK AND
	2	THEN ASK THEM.
	3	SO WE ARE GOING TO EXCUSE YOU AND WE WILL
	4	CALL YOU BACK AFTER OUR BREAK.
	5	THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
	6	MS. PRIVER: THANK YOU.
	7
	8	(THE WITNESS EXITED THE GRAND JURY
	9	HEARING ROOM.)
	10
	11	MS. PRIVER: WOULD YOU RECESS THIS GRAND JURY FOR
	12	10 MINUTES.
	13	THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
	14	MS. PRIVER: THE GRAND JURORS ARE ADMONISHED AND
	15	ADVISED NOT TO DISCUSS THIS MATTER OR FORM ANY OPINION
	16	UNTIL SUCH TIME AS IT IS GIVEN TO THEM FOR DELIBERATIONS.
	17
	18	(RECESS.)
	19
	20	MS. PRIVER: MR. FOREPERSON, WOULD YOU CALL THIS
	21	GRAND JURY HEARING BACK INTO SESSION, PLEASE.
	22	THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
	23	MS. PRIVER: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT THE SAME
	24	NUMBER, AS WELL AS THE SAME GRAND JURORS, ARE NOW PRESENT
	25	AS WERE PRESENT AT THIS MORNING'S ROLL CALL.
	26	ALSO PRESENT IS DEPUTY D.A. CRAIG HUM AND
	27	MYSELF, THE LEGAL ADVISOR.
	28	YOU WISH TO RECALL DETECTIVE LESLIE?



		210
	1	MR. HUM: YES, PLEASE.
	2	MS. PRIVER: DETECTIVE LESLIE, PLEASE.
	3
	4	(PAUSE IN THE PROCEEDINGS.)
	5	(THE WITNESS ENTERED THE GRAND JURY
	6	HEARING ROOM.)
	7
	8	MS. PRIVER: HAVE A SEAT, PLEASE.
	9	STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD.
	10	THE WITNESS: JEFFREY LESLIE.
	11	MS. PRIVER: YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER
	12	OATH.
	13	DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
	14	THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
	15	MS. PRIVER: MR. HUM.
	16	MR. HUM: THANK YOU.
	17	Q DETECTIVE LESLIE, A FEW QUESTIONS. YOU
	18	INTERVIEWED A NUMBER OF WITNESSES WITH REGARD TO THIS
	19	CASE, CORRECT?
	20	A YES.
	21	Q WERE YOU EVER ABLE TO LOCATE ANYONE THAT
	22	ACTUALLY SAW LAUREN LEAVE THE CLIFF?
	23	A NO. NO. ONLY PRIOR TO ARRIVING AT
	24	INSPIRATION POINT.
	25	Q YOU INDICATED THAT MR. BROWN TOLD YOU THAT
	26	WHILE HE WAS DRIVING FROM LAUREN'S SCHOOL UP TO ABALONE
	27	COVE HE MADE A NUMBER OF ATTEMPTS TO CALL HIS WIFE; IS
	28	THAT CORRECT?



		211
	1	A THAT IS WHAT HE TOLD US, YES.
	2	Q DID HE INDICATE WHETHER HE USED A CELLPHONE
	3	OR HOW HE ATTEMPTED TO MAKE THOSE CALLS?
	4	A HE DID NOT HAVE A CELLPHONE. HE TOLD US
	5	THAT HE STOPPED AT SEVERAL PAY PHONES ALONG THE WAY AND
	6	ULTIMATELY MADE THE CALL ON A PAY PHONE LOCATED AT THE
	7	ABALONE COVE PARKING LOT.
	8	Q AND WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT MR. BROWN
	9	INDICATED HE PICKED UP HIS DAUGHTER FROM THE SCHOOL?
	10	A 12:30 P.M.
	11	Q AND YOU HEARD THE TIME ON THE C.H.P. TAPE,
	12	THE TIME OF THE 911 CALL, RIGHT?
	13	A YES.
	14	Q AND WHAT TIME IS THAT?
	15	A ABOUT 2:30 IN THE AFTERNOON.
	16	Q WHEN YOU --
	17	IF THE TIME ON THE TAPE WERE TO INDICATE
	18	1458 HOURS, WHAT TIME IS THAT IN LIKE REAL PEOPLE TIME?
	19	A 1458 WOULD BE TWO MINUTES TO 3:00 O'CLOCK.
	20	Q SO 2:58?
	21	A YES.
	22	Q IN THE AFTERNOON?
	23	A IN THE AFTERNOON.
	24	Q WHEN YOU LOOKED AT MR. BROWN'S CLOTHING,
	25	YOU INDICATED HIS BOOTS WERE WET?
	26	A YES, THE BOOTS WERE WET.
	27	Q WHAT ABOUT THE SOCKS? DO YOU RECALL?
	28	A I BELIEVE THE SOCKS WERE WET ALSO. IT HAD



		212
	1	BEEN SEVERAL HOURS, SO THEY WEREN'T HOLDING AS MUCH WATER
	2	AS THE LEATHER SHOES WERE, BUT THEY APPEARED TO BE WET.
	3	Q WHEN YOU WENT --
	4	YOU INDICATED THAT AFTER YOU ARRIVED AT THE
	5	ARCHERY RANGE ON NOVEMBER 8TH OF 2000 AT SOME POINT YOU
	6	WALKED OUT ACTUALLY ONTO THE FLAT ROCKS AND TO THE INLET
	7	WHERE LAUREN'S BODY HAD BEEN RECOVERED; IS THAT CORRECT?
	8	A YES.
	9	Q WAS IT GETTING DARK, OR WAS IT DARK WHEN
	10	YOU GOT OUT THERE?
	11	A IT WAS DARK WHEN WE ARRIVED.
	12	Q BY THE TIME YOU ARRIVED HAD LAUREN'S BODY
	13	ALREADY BEEN REMOVED TO THE ARCHERY RANGE TABLE? IN
	14	OTHER WORDS, WAS IT ALREADY ON THE ARCHERY RANGE TABLE
	15	WHEN YOU ARRIVED?
	16	A YES.
	17	Q SO YOU NEVER SAW HER BODY IN THE WATER?
	18	A NO. NO.
	19	Q DID YOU CHECK CAMERON BROWN'S CAR AT ANY
	20	TIME?
	21	A IT WAS DRIVEN TO THE LOMITA SHERIFF'S
	22	STATION WITH HIS APPROVAL AND CONSENT TO LOOK THROUGH IT;
	23	AND, YEAH, A CURSORY SEARCH WAS CONDUCTED. HOWEVER,
	24	NOTHING PERTAINING TO LAUREN'S DEATH WAS FOUND WITHIN THE
	25	CAR.
	26	Q OKAY. SO YOU HAD A SHERIFF'S DEPUTY DRIVE
	27	IT TO LOMITA STATION?
	28	A THAT'S CORRECT.



		213
	1	Q AND MR. BROWN SAID GO AHEAD AND DO THAT?
	2	A HE HAD ASKED US -- HE DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE
	3	IT PARKED IN THE PARKING FACILITY. HE WANTED TO HAVE IT
	4	ACCESSIBLE TO HIM AT LOMITA STATION, SO I ARRANGED FOR
	5	ANOTHER DEPUTY SHERIFF TO DRIVE IT THERE FOR HIM.
	6	Q DID YOU EVER HAVE OR REQUEST THAT THE BLOOD
	7	EVIDENCE ON THE ROCKS BE ANALYZED TO SEE IF THE DNA
	8	MATCHED LAUREN'S BLOOD?
	9	A NO, THAT HAS NOT BEEN DONE. IT WAS PRETTY
	10	EVIDENT THAT THE BLOOD AND COAGULATED BLOOD/BRAIN MATTER
	11	WAS ATTRIBUTED, DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTED, TO HER. IT WAS
	12	LOCATED ON THE FLAT ROCK WHERE HE SAID HE HAD PLACED HER
	13	AND CONDUCTED C.P.R.
	14	THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF ANYBODY ELSE
	15	BLEEDING OUT THERE, ESPECIALLY TO THAT EXTENT OF THE
	16	COAGULATED BRAIN MATTER TYPE BLOOD, SO THAT WAS NOT DONE.
	17	Q NOW, DURING HIGH TIDE DOES THE WATER
	18	ACTUALLY COME UP ONTO THOSE ROCKS AND COVER THOSE ROCKS?
	19	A A PORTION OF THEM, YES.
	20	Q YOU TRIED TO -- HAVE YOU TRIED TO GET OUT
	21	TO THE ROCKS DURING HIGH TIDE?
	22	A YES, I HAVE.
	23	Q AND YOU COULDN'T MAKE IT AND YOU GOT AWFUL
	24	WET?
	25	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	26	Q HOW ABOUT THE BLOOD ON MR. BROWN'S SHIRT
	27	AND SOCKS; DID YOU HAVE THAT ANALYZED, OR DID YOU FEEL
	28	THERE WAS ANY NECESSITY FOR THAT?



		214
	1	A IT HAS NOT. IT'S BEEN -- IT'S BEEN SEIZED.
	2	IT'S BEEN FROZEN. IT IS THERE FOR ANY FUTURE ANALYSIS.
	3	HOWEVER, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WOULD TELL US OTHER THAN
	4	IT'S HER BLOOD.
	5	Q DID YOU SEE ANY INDICATION THAT MR. BROWN
	6	WAS BLEEDING AT ALL?
	7	A NO. AND, AGAIN, I SPECIFICALLY LOOKED FOR
	8	THAT BECAUSE I EXPECTED THERE TO BE SCRAPES, ABRASIONS,
	9	CUTS, BRUISES; AND THERE WAS NOTHING INDICATING THAT HE
	10	WAS BLEEDING WHATSOEVER.
	11	Q NOW, AT SOME POINT YOU SERVED A SEARCH
	12	WARRANT ON MR. BROWN'S RESIDENCE, CORRECT?
	13	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	14	Q DID YOU SEE ANY INDICATION THAT MR. BROWN
	15	HAD TAKEN PHOTOGRAPHS OF LAUREN PREVIOUSLY? AND, IF SO,
	16	A LOT, A FEW?
	17	A THERE WERE VERY FEW PHOTOGRAPHS OF LAUREN.
	18	MR. BROWN HAD RECEIVED SOME FROM LAUREN'S MOTHER; THEY
	19	WERE NOT TAKEN BY HIM.
	20	THERE WERE SOME PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN OF LAUREN
	21	IN AN ATTEMPT TO DEPICT INJURIES TO HER THAT HE HAD
	22	ATTRIBUTED TO CLAIMS THAT HER MOTHER, SARAH MARER, WAS
	23	ABUSING HER. THOSE WERE THE ONLY PHOTOGRAPHS THAT I SAW
	24	THAT WERE ACTUALLY TAKEN BY CAMERON BROWN.
	25	THE OTHERS WERE PROVIDED TO HIM, AND THEY
	26	WERE VERY LIMITED.
	27	Q AND SOME OF THE PHOTOS, COULD YOU TELL THAT
	28	THEY HAD BEEN PROVIDED BECAUSE THEY APPEARED TO HAVE BEEN



		215
	1	PHOTOS OF LAUREN AND SARAH AND SARAH HAD ACTUALLY BEEN
	2	CUT OFF THE PHOTOGRAPHS SO IT WAS ONLY LAUREN?
	3	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	4	Q DID YOU FIND ANY OTHER PICTURES AT
	5	MR. BROWN'S RESIDENCE OR ANYWHERE ELSE THAT DEPICTED HER
	6	PLAYING ON THE BEACH OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT THAT YOU CAN
	7	RECALL?
	8	A THERE WERE NO PHOTOGRAPHS OF THAT NATURE.
	9	Q BASED ON THE CASTS THAT WERE LIFTED BY
	10	MR. FALICON, WERE YOU EVER ABLE TO COMPARE THOSE CASTS TO
	11	ANYONE'S SHOES?
	12	A NO.
	13	Q NOW, THE NIGHT THIS HAPPENED, DID YOU TAKE
	14	MR. BROWN'S BOOTS?
	15	A NO.
	16	Q IN RETROSPECT, SHOULD YOU HAVE TAKEN
	17	MR. BROWN'S BOOTS?
	18	A YES.
	19	Q AT SOME POINT DID YOU ATTEMPT TO GET
	20	MR. BROWN'S BOOTS FROM HIM?
	21	A YES, WE DID.
	22	Q AND ABOUT HOW MUCH LATER WAS THAT?
	23	A I THINK IT WAS A COUPLE OF DAYS.
	24	Q AND WHAT DID MR. BROWN TELL YOU?
	25	A HE SAID --
	26	MAYBE IT WAS A WEEK OR SO.
	27	HE HAD INDICATED TO US THAT HE HAD THROWN
	28	THE SHOES AWAY THE DAY OR SO AFTER THE INCIDENT.



		216
	1	Q WHEN YOU WERE OUT THERE LOOKING FOR
	2	THESE -- FOR ANY SHOE IMPRESSIONS, DID YOU SEE ANY SHOE
	3	IMPRESSIONS THAT WOULD INDICATE THAT A CHILD WAS RUNNING
	4	AROUND OR PLAYING IN THAT SAME AREA?
	5	A ABSOLUTELY NOT.
	6	Q NOW, YOU HAVE LOOKED AT THE CONTOURS OF THE
	7	CLIFF FROM ABOVE AND BELOW, CORRECT?
	8	A YES.
	9	Q WE HAVE ALSO HAD AN EXPERT CONDUCT A
	10	DETAILED ANALYSIS OF THE SHAPES OF THE CLIFF AND THE
	11	VARIOUS PORTIONS OF IT, AND THAT PERSON WILL BE
	12	TESTIFYING LATER, CORRECT?
	13	A THAT'S CORRECT.
	14	Q DID MR. BROWN INDICATE TO YOU WHETHER OR
	15	NOT HE WAS FAMILIAR WITH THIS PARTICULAR AREA?
	16	A HE SAID HE WAS FAMILIAR WITH THE AREA;
	17	HOWEVER, HE HAD NEVER BEEN TO THAT PARTICULAR POINT
	18	BEFORE, NOR HAD HE BEEN THERE WITH THE CHILD.
	19	SO MY INTERPRETATION OF THAT WAS HE WAS
	20	FAMILIAR WITH MORE OF THE ROAD AND GENERALLY WHAT WAS IN
	21	THE AREA; HOWEVER, I GOT THE IMPRESSION HE HAD NOT
	22	TRAVERSED IT AND KNEW SPECIFICS. MORE GENERALITIES.
	23	Q YOU DID HEAR ON THE 911 TAPE THAT HE
	24	INDICATED HE WAS NEAR THE ARCHERY RANGE, CORRECT?
	25	A YES.
	26	Q WAS THERE --
	27	DID HE EVER TELL YOU THAT HE HAD BEEN TO
	28	THAT ARCHERY RANGE OR HOW HE KNEW THAT THERE WAS AN



		217
	1	ARCHERY RANGE THERE?
	2	A NO. IN FACT, IT IS VERY, VERY ODD BECAUSE
	3	IF YOU HAD NOT BEEN THERE, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE KNOWN. WE
	4	HAD ACTUALLY SPOKEN TO A WITNESS WHO SAID HE HIKES THAT
	5	AREA EVERY DAY, HE HAD GROWN UP THERE FOR THE LAST 30
	6	YEARS, AND HE DID NOT KNOW THAT THE ARCHERY RANGE WAS
	7	THERE.
	8	MS. PRIVER: THAT IS NOT BEING OFFERED FOR THE
	9	TRUTH OF THE MATTER ASSERTED, BUT TO EXPLAIN THE
	10	OFFICER'S FEELING THAT IT WAS ODD.
	11	Q BY MR. HUM: AND CAN YOU SEE, FOR EXAMPLE,
	12	THE ARCHERY RANGE FROM THE ROAD?
	13	A NO, YOU CAN'T.
	14	Q ARE THERE SIGNS THAT SAY "ARCHERY RANGE
	15	THIS WAY"?
	16	A THERE ARE NOT. AS I RECALL, THERE MAY BE
	17	ONE VERY SMALL SIGN AS YOU ACTUALLY ENTER THE GATE, BUT
	18	IT WOULD NOT BE SEEN FROM THE ROAD. YOU WOULD NEED TO BE
	19	GOING ONTO THE DIRT AND UP TO WHERE IT IS BLOCKED OFF BY
	20	A GATE TO ACTUALLY SEE. AND I AM NOT EVEN POSITIVE OF
	21	THAT. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT SEEMS FAMILIAR, A VERY,
	22	VERY OLD SIGN THAT IS VERY HARD TO READ, BUT I AM NOT
	23	POSITIVE.
	24	Q DID MR. BROWN INDICATE TO YOU WHETHER OR
	25	NOT HE BELIEVED HIS DAUGHTER WAS DEAD WHEN HE WAS
	26	ATTEMPTING C.P.R. ON THE ROCKS?
	27	A HE DIDN'T SAY ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, AS I
	28	RECALL.



		218
	1	Q DURING THE INTERVIEW WITH MR. BROWN THAT
	2	NIGHT, YOU SAID IT LASTED ABOUT FOUR HOURS AND YOU
	3	SAID -- YOU DESCRIBED HIS DEMEANOR. DID HE EVER APPEAR
	4	TO GET FRUSTRATED OR ANGRY WITH YOU DURING THIS
	5	INTERVIEW?
	6	A NO. AND THAT'S ACTUALLY WHAT I WAS LOOKING
	7	FOR. THAT WAS THE OTHER ODDITY.
	8	AND, AGAIN, IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT'S NORMAL,
	9	WHAT'S ABNORMAL; BUT YOU CAN CERTAINLY EXPECT CERTAIN
	10	THINGS AND CERTAIN REACTIONS FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE
	11	INNOCENT.
	12	WHEN SOMEBODY IS CONFRONTING YOU AND
	13	TELLING YOU, "YOU DID THIS, YOU DID THIS, YOU DID THIS,"
	14	AT A CERTAIN POINT IN TIME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BECOME
	15	ANGRY, ANGERED, AND FIRE BACK AND BECOME EMOTIONAL AND
	16	SAY, "NO, I DIDN'T DO THIS. YOU ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING."
	17	AND THERE WAS NEVER ANY OF THAT.
	18	IT WAS, "NO. NO, I TOLD YOU WHAT HAPPENED.
	19	YOU WROTE IT DOWN."
	20	THERE WAS NO EMOTION WHATSOEVER.
	21	MS. PRIVER: THAT IS BASED ON YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE
	22	AND YOUR TRAINING IN INTERVIEW TECHNIQUES?
	23	THE WITNESS: BASED ON WHAT I HAVE LEARNED THROUGH
	24	INTERVIEWS, INTERROGATIONS, BOTH AT SCHOOLS AND IN
	25	CONDUCTING INTERVIEWS OVER THE LAST 18 YEARS, YES.
	26	MR. HUM: THANK YOU.
	27	MS. PRIVER: ANY FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS?
	28



		219
	1	(SHORT PAUSE.)
	2
	3	MS. PRIVER: THERE AREN'T ANY ADDITIONAL
	4	QUESTIONS.
	5	THANK YOU, DETECTIVE.
	6	YOU ARE ONCE AGAIN REMINDED OF THE
	7	ADMONITION REGARDING THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF THE GRAND
	8	JURY, AND YOU ARE EXCUSED.
	9	THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM. THANK YOU.
	10
	11	(THE WITNESS EXITED THE GRAND JURY
	12	HEARING ROOM.)
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